I got two wedding invitations in the mail this week, both with serious Emily Post violations: Our names were listed on the invitations without any honorifics. No "Mr" and "Miss" or "Ms" (though I'm not sure the serious etiquette folks recognize that last one). Just our names.
The horror!
Actually, I think it's great. I don't get the purpose of honorifics on invitations to people you are not trying to impress. Sure, I might refer to the director of a graduate program I'm applying to as "Professor," but do my parents need to be referred to as "Dr" when I send them something in the mail?
Ordinarily I would not actually notice how people address me on an envelope (spelling my name right is enough for me). But since I'm just under a year away from sending out my own invites, I've taken an interest. I think titles are not worth the potential complications they inevitably bring. My beloved is not so sure. I get that wedding invitations are asking people to join you at a formal affair, so it's nice to be all nice and fancy about it, but will people show up in flip-flops just because we didn't refer to them as Mr. and Mrs.? Isn't there something to be said for simplicity?
Think about the potential issues titles, er, invite:
Example 1: Mr. and Mrs. John Post
Unacceptable, in my view, unless the wife is either unnamed, imaginary or in some kind of witness protection situation. Especially if you know the wife and only sort of know the husband...why does he get his name on the envelope?
Example 2: Mr. John and Mrs. Emily Post
Awkward!
Example 3: Mr. John and Dr. Emily Post
Just looks weird
Example 4: Dr. Emily and Mr. John Post
Looks strangely emasculating
Example 5: John and Emily Post (or Emily and John Post)
Is anyone really offended by this? Like, seriously?
Really, would anyone be offended if they get a wedding invitation without a formal title for him/herself and his/her spouse? If so, speak now or forever hold your peace. And be prepared to defend your position.
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11 comments:
How about:
Example #1
Mr & Mrs. Post
Example #2
Mr. John Post & Guest
In example #1, the wife and husband's name are not included so no one gets offended.
In example #2, you could leave out the name of the guest and only invite the name of the friend of the groom or bride to bring a guest.
Personally, I'd go the traditional Mr. and Mrs. John Post as the envelope goes in the garbage soon after receipt of the invite anyway.
If the envelope goes in the garbage, why do I need Mr. and Mrs.? Why not just use the two people's names? If the envelope is not that big of a deal, why bother to conform to tradition if the tradition is blatantly sexist?
(Not to restart the Charlin-Perl sexism discussion here, but I think we can agree that subsuming a woman to her husband's name is a tad outdated, can't we? I mean, it's no crime against humanity, but it's not something I'd like to perpetuate.)
Example 2 isn't for people who are bringing guests, but there are a lot of couples you know well, and so would never refer to the second person as a "guest," but where you are friends through the woman, not the guy. Plus it is much more tasteful and welcoming to refer to all guests by name.
It is definitley sexist but worse than the envelope is being pronounced "MAN and Wife." From looking at the internet, there is nothing that puts the name of the married female on the envelope unless certain circumstances. But, it's your wedding and you can totally write whatever ya want since the envelope does goe in the garbage anyway. But, here's what the internet says: (I think the LAST paragraph below is maybe what you are looking for when addressing your envelopes even though it says "informal", who really cares if the affair is considered formal or informal)
Everyone has a title. In the case of such titles as, Mr., Mrs., Ms., and Dr., abbreviations can and should be used. Use Mr., Mrs., Ms. and Miss accordingly. In the case of judges (Honorable), the clergy (Reverend, Rabbi, etc.), political figures (Governor, Mayor, etc.), and those in the military (Lieutenant, General, etc.), we strongly suggest using the full title but abbreviations are also accepted for these (Sen. John Doe, Hon. John Doe, Prof. John Doe, and Brig. Gen. John Doe). For retired high ranking individuals in the military, the title should appear as Gen. (Ret.) John Doe.
Married couples should be addressed as Mr. and Mrs. John Doe. Should the wife have retained her maiden name after marriage or if she uses a hyphenated last name the address should read Ms. Jane Smith and Mr. John Doe or Ms. Jane Smith-Doe and Mr. John Doe. If you are addressing a married couple and want to use both of their first names, the husbands name must be kept next to the surname, for example: Mrs. Gloria and Mr. Howard Jones.
Use a comma before Sr. or Jr. as Mr. John Doe, Jr. Do not use a comma before the roman numerals II or III when it follows a name. The name should read Mr. John Doe III. In some cases, when a script typeface is used, the capital letter "I" does not look like the roman numeral one, therefore, it is preferred to write it out as Mr. John Doe the Third or eliminate the suffix all together.
Always spell out Reverend and Honorable when preceded by "The" as in The Reverend John Doe or The Reverend Father John Doe. Abbreviate Rev. and Hon. when used with a persons FULL name as Hon. John Doe. Never use The Rev. Doe or Rev. Doe. Spell out Rabbi as in Rabbi David Mark Feldman. The inside envelopes may be less formal by using Father John or Rabbi Feldman.
When both husband and wife are identically degreed, use Drs. Jane and John Doe or The Doctors Doe (remembering that the husbands first name must be placed next to the surname). In the case of a married couple and the wife is a doctor the title should read Dr. Jane Doe and Mr. John Doe or Dr. Jane and Mr. John Doe. If the husband is the doctor, the correct title would be Dr. and Mrs. John Doe. Individuals with a PhD. are not generally noted in formal addressing unless they are a medical doctor, in which case Dr. is used. If the wife of a doctor is retaining her maiden name and she is NOT a doctor herself, the degreed name is placed first; Dr. John Doe and Ms. Jane Smith.
In a dual title, use Reverend Dr. John Doe or Honorable Dr. John Doe. On the inside envelope, use only one title: Reverend Doe or Dr. Doe which ever is used most commonly.
Unmarried couples, living together can be written as Ms. Jane Doe and Mr. John Smith on one line. Alternatively, the "and" may be omitted and the the second name can be placed on a separate line. The person with the closest relationship to the sender should appear first. If both persons have an equal relationship to the sender the names should be placed alphabetically by last name.
Should the wife have retained her single name after marriage or if she uses a hyphenated last name the address should read Mr. John Doe and Mrs. Jane Smith or Mr. John Doe and Mrs. Jane Smith-Doe.
In the case of single females, a good rule of thumb is to use Miss for those under the age of 18 and if they have never been married. Use Ms. for those who are 18 or over or are divorced or separated. Mrs. is used for those who are widowed, you may use their own first name or their husbands first name along with her married last name, but the best bet is to try and use what the individual prefers to be called. In some circles it is preferable for a widow to use her maiden name in place of her first name and then her married name as in Mrs. Smith Doe. In the case of those who are divorced use their own first name, not the former husband's first name even though they retain their married last name, such as Mrs. Jane Doe or Ms. Jane Doe.
You may wish to extend an invitation to a single guest to bring a guest of their own. Whether you choose to or not is entirely up to you, but outside envelopes should not say "and Guest". This should be printed on the inside envelope. Should no inside envelope be used, and you know that a particular single guest would like to bring someone, it is advisable to take the time to find out the guest's name.
A final word on Titles, if you are having an informal affair it is perfectly acceptable to omit the titles all together and just use first names, such as Jane and John Doe. The correct format for this is to list the wife's name first with the husband's name next to the surname. The word "and" should be spelled out unless you are using a calligraphy script that contains a lovely flourished ampersand (&).
Thanks for the guide! Of course, the Internet also says that the moon landing was a hoax and the Bush administration planned 9/11. So I think I'll go with common sense and skip the titles.
Ugh. No surprise here, but I hate the idea of subsuming the wife's name into her husband's. What, not only does she lose her last name, but now it's not even worth the ink to bother printing out her first name? Who came up with these antiquated rules anyway? Apparently it's a good thing I kept my last name in case anyone is still keeping by these old etiquette rules. (I'm also a fan of using "Ms." -- not only is it simpler in terms of less guesswork, it is also more similar to using "Mr." -- not focusing on a woman's marital status as a means of categorizing/defining her.)
By the way, I agree the whole "man and wife" pronouncement is awfully sexist as well, which is why now happily people are often pronounced "husband and wife," as we did at my wedding. :)
Oops, just wanted to clarify. When I said I'm a fan of using "Ms." I meant I would prefer being called Ms. as opposed to Mrs. if you were going with titles at all. But I vote for sticking with names and no titles!
Thanks for weighing in - and happy anniversary to you and the Mr.!
I'm hoping my wife weighs in on this since she's a stickler for these rules. From what I've learned (all from my wife, that is), I think the only thing you should worry about is making sure you correctly follow the rules around widows. I wouldn't want to offend someone by mistakenly inviting their deceased husband, or conversely identifying a woman as a widow on an invite when the husband is very much alive.
Of course, doing away with the titles sounds like an excellent idea as well!
Ok, I'm late to this discussion but I'm on a night shift and have nothing better to do. :P I think titles are a good way to create a bunch of work for yourself. It's too easy to offend if you include them and don't know each person's preference, title-wise -- Ms. versus Mrs. is a good example. I am personally irked if someone includes "Miss" on a letter to me, but could care less if it's left off all together.
And Mr. and Mrs. John Post is horrible. Horrible, horrible, horrible. Mr. John Post and Guest is also kind of offensive if you know both partners, even if you are closer to one than the other. Also, why is "Ms." only appropriate for a married woman who has either retained her last name or hyphenated it? That just seems wrong to me. The whole point of "Ms." is to avoid suggesting that a woman's identity is somehow changed or shaped by marriage. It is meant to be as ambiguous as "Mr." Taking one person's last name can come simply from the desire to have a single family name; it shouldn't change your right to be addressed by your chosen title. Which, of course, further complicates matters if you really want to bother with titles in the first place.
Oh -- and individuals with a Ph.D. are generally referred to as Dr. At least, in any professional correspondence, they are. So I disagree with the internet there, as does the majority of the academic community. Ok, I disagree with a lot of the rules quoted here, but this one's particularly annoying after being stuck in grad school for 4+ years. :P
Anyway, I think personally that I don't think about titles unless they're included, and only if they're irksome. I don't think there's anything wrong with leaving them off.
Liz: I'm with you on just about everything there. Though I did kind of like the idea of addressing you as "Dr." Maybe I'll make an exception and put a title on your invite!
(It's too bad you're not married because it would be way fun to address you guys as "Mr. and Dr. James G--" - take that, horrible tradition!)
hehe... Mr. and Dr. James G- would be hilarious. :P
You know -- you could just completely throw everyone off track and switch the name order -- Ms. and Mr. Elena Post, for example. :P
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